Off leash dogs at non off leash parks (like Hiawatha)

[charlabob]

NR, as I said, my comment has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I was simply acknowledging that something difficult was said.

I have no interest in opening up the other discussion again and I’m a bit surprised you took this opportunity to do so.

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[Anonymous]

What is with the 5 miles over comparison. Are you that desperate to win an argument? Speeding in that manner is not a willful act of defiance and law breaking like road rage or racing another car. It’s an absent minded lapse of keeping up with the flow of traffic.

The off leash defenders are saying I know the law and why it exists, but in my case it doesn’t apply and I’m not going to follow it. My pet could never endanger someone or something, because I have complete control. Except of course, when I don’t.

If you prefer to to compare yourself to driving, you are the drunk drivers of the world. The ones who know themselves better than anyone else, and I’ll get home just fine, thank-you. Except that one time you hit someone.

Personally, if you live in the back forty, I don’t care if you drive drunk, smoking a joint, letting your dog run behind you. Here, in the city, where we have to get along with each other, we need to follow the rules that benefit the majority.

You are walking your dog in a public shared space. You do not have control of the environment nor the right to impose your rules onto others. Every dog attack comes from an owner who swears mine would never do that. What’s your excuse going to be when it does?

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[Mama]

As you might guess, I have some pretty strong opinions on this particular topic.

In my case, I was not surprised that the large dog owner balked at paying our vet bills. I heard “It’s not like I told my dog to attack your dog on purpose… it was an accident… accidents happen… it wasn’t my fault.” I was even told it was somehow MY dog’s fault for perhaps resembling a rabbit or other small animal. What?? I am standing on the sidewalk with my dog on a leash, your off leash dog runs up from behind and chomps on my dog’s throat and starts doing a death thrash with him in his mouth before I have a chance to even react, how is that not you and your dog’s fault? (I wish I had my bat then – me hitting at the large dog with my fists and yelling “drop it!” did not work very well…) All I wanted was the vet bills paid, which only reluctantly happened after the lawyer threatened to sue for a lot more money than that.

The same mentality that allows some people to think they are above the law (yeah, you heard me) and can let their dogs run around without a leash is the same mentality of people who don’t think they have to take responsibility for their (or their dogs) actions. It is everyone’s fault but theirs, and the law applies to everyone except them and their dog. Like they are somehow more important or better than everyone else.

There are 2 kinds of people in this world: people who are considerate and thoughtful of others, and people who are not. And off leash people fall into the second group.

As for the bat, it is a very visible sign to stay away from me and my dog, rather than fumbling with pepper spray. I have had to raise the bat on occasion, or hold it out in front of me in a threatening manner, but I have never actually had to hit a dog with it, and I hope I never have to.

In my situation, there were wonderful bystanders who stopped to help us. One man tried to stop the large dog and the owner from leaving the area, and got their license plate number for me, which is how I eventually tracked them down. A woman comforted my hysterical daughter, and another man looked at my dog’s wounds and tried to reassure me that they did not look fatal as he drove us to the nearest vet hospital, getting blood all over his car. I am grateful to these strangers who took the time to help us. The police were not very helpful. I did call 911, but they would not come out at the time. I later received a visit and apology from the police and Animal Control after they reviewed the 911 tapes.

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[Anonymous]

JT – That was very well put.

Charla – You continue to amaze me.

It’s completely obvious what you were doing.

If you honestly respected those who have an opinion other than the mainstream (which, by the way, has nothing to do with what is being discussed in THIS thread), you would have used that same exact post in a different thread.

Instead, you have just proven yourself a hypocrite.

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[charlabob]

Mama, I’m so sorry for your horrible experience. There really is no excuse and none should be made.

It happens that I’m firmly on the side of the “dogs should be leashed” contingent. We had a wonderful big dog (the glab, of whom I’ve spoken) who was the zeta of dogs. He was scared to death of the dogs in the off-leash park, but he looked tough, simply because of his size.

We always took him for walks on a leash and were often accosted by little unleashed dogs (and even cats who had him figured out). :-)

I wasn’t defending “off leashness” — I was expressing my amazement and respect that someone posted the opposing view. (I just deleted a thread I’d started because I don’t have that kind of courage.)

JT’s distinction of “drunken drivers” versus drivers who exceed the limit by 5 miles is a perfect analogy.

NR: you and I must have hit “send” simultaneously…I didn’t want to appear to ignore your message to me … I wasn’t attacking you — I did think it was brave for a person who didn’t use a leash to post that fact here. If that makes me a hypocrite, because I don’t say the exact same thing every time someone does something brave, then OK, whatever :-)

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[herongrrrl]

“There are 2 kinds of people in this world: people who are considerate and thoughtful of others, and people who are not. And off leash people fall into the second group.”

Mama, I think you’ve hit the nail soundly on the head here.

So what if your dog is the perfect dog who would never, ever, not ever, no really, NEVER do anything harmful to anyone or anything else in the whole entire world? If you are walking your dog without a leash in a place where leashes are required, you are showing others with less-than-perfect dogs that they are free to do the same. There’s something to be said for modeling desireable behavior, imo.

And speaking of expressing unpopular viewpoints, here’s mine: dogs and beaches are really not such a great combination. Sure, Fido might love to run up and down the beach, but in doing so he can disturb shorebirds (which are protected by law), get into a scrap with seals or sea lions (often doesn’t go well for the dog–there was a case in California earlier this year of an elephant seal dragging a dog off the beach into the ocean!), or get into something smelly and dead that at best will result in a very stinky dog and at worst can result in a life-threatening illness. Rocky beaches are covered with sharp barnacles that can shred a dog’s pads. And imagine the fines you would have to pay if your off-leash dog was the first to discover a baby harbor seal on Alki Beach, with you too far behind to intervene until it was too late! Those fines aren’t pocket change, folks.

Again, I really think it boils down to having some consideration for other creatures, human or otherwise. So if you want to continue to advertise your self-centeredness to the world, by all means, don’t leash your dog!

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[melissa]

Oy. Such absolutists.

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[Anonymous]

Oy. Such narcissism.

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[miws]

Oy, I *still* don’t understand the reactive nature of the “off-leashers”, i.e. “if anything happens, I’ll deal with it then”, what if the if, becomes a when?.

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As someone mentioned above, are you going to step up and pay all of the vet bills, and other associated costs, such as cleaning up blood stains, if any, in the car used to the transport the injured dog?

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How about any ongoing costs? what if there is nerve damage that may result in chronic pain for the dog, or some level of paralysis? Pain meds for the rest of the dogs life? (I’ll assume there is such a thing for animals).

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And, once again, what if the dog dies? No amount of money, or “gee, I’m sorry’s” can bring that dog back to life.

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Also, I’m sure that 99.99999% of the people here, no matter what side of this issue they are on, will agree that pets are like a member of the family, and that losing one can be almost as traumatic as losing a human family member or friend. So, because of that, I would have no problem with the victim suing the pants off of the off-leasher, for emotional damages. Nothing frivolous about that.

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I’m not trying to attack anyone here. I generally don’t get in on debates, as I’m not much of a debater. This just hit a nerve with me.

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Also, I’m not “Mr. Law & Order”. To me, it’s not so much about the law, as it is about respect, common courtesy, and consideration for others. Which I’m very big on.

.

Mike

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[JoB]

herongirl…

dogs and beaches can coexist.. a retractable leash allows plenty of running room while restricting interaction with wildlife.. and in my experience.. it’s pretty hard not to pay attention to what your dog is up to on a retractable leash on the beach…especially if you have more than one dog.

i have seen many pets literally wind their owners up running about in joy… and with two:))))

miws.. mike…

you hit the nail on the head.. leash laws are about respect, common courtesy and consideration for others..

if you can walk your dog off leash in an isolated area and maintain respect, common courtesy and consideration for others.. i am all for it.

unfortunately the opportunity to do that is rare.

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[GreenSpaces]

I am so sick of people who don’t give a sh*t about the rest of us and are above the law and allow their dogs to run off-leash. I was attacked by a Great dane when I was 2 and a German shepherd when I was 13. My dad moved the family to the country when I was 7 so we could get a dog so I could learn to not be scared of pigeons in the park. Today I am comfortable around dogs I know, but not ones I don’t. When I was 35 I adopted an Italian greyhound as a walking companion, and also started volunteering at the Seattle Animal Shelter so I could get more comfortable around dogs I don’t know.

6 months after adopting my dog, walking in my neighborhood on 18th Ave SW in Puget Ridge, my dog was rushed by a pit bull out of the dark. The street has next to no lights, no sidewalks, and it was a dark November evening. My greyhound went from 16 feet of Flexi in front of me to 16 feet the other direction so fast her martingale collar came right off and she was loose in the street in the dark. I have never allowed that dog to be off leash in an uncontrolled space, it took us many months to bond after her adoption and that is the first time I tested her recall ability and I am so fortunate that after yelling at the dog’s owner who was standing there like an idiot, I moved about 20 feet away, knelt down in the dark as I see oncoming cars coming from both directions and begged her to come to me. She did – she now has a collar that is industrial strength, and I started using a 4 feet leash exclusively because this breed can run 35 mph and a Flexi is too dangerous. I also stopped walking her in my neigbhorhood and drove every day to a park or path to walk her. This was in 2005.

After 2 years of driving somewhere else to walk my dog, which I still resent, my husband and I decided to sell our house and move someplace more civilized – High Point. There are sidewalks here, good street lights, and an HOA with teeth. And I still have trouble with off-leash dogs and arrogant neighbors right here – and I make sure that when I have a personal incident it gets reported. I don’t want my dog killed. She reacts in fear when approached by too-forward dogs and owners who are idiots who tell me “don’t worry, he is friendly” I tell them I am not worried about what there dog will do, I worry about what mine will do and that can cause a misunderstanding and someone could get hurt.

Recently I had a black dog come racing across the street full tilt straight for my dog – it was raining and I was actually using an umbrella that day, so I used my unbrella to block the charging dog. The owner headed over to get his dog, as it was circling opposite directions trying to get to my dog (who is on a 4 feet leash mind you). He was very apologetic, said the dog had rushed out the front door when he opened it and said it would never happen again. And THEN he had the audacity to tell me to not hit his dog with my umbrella. I was floored. I told him I didn’t hit the dog but block its attack, and he still argued. I am still mad I didn’t get the address and report him. I will next time, because there always IS a next time with people like this.

I am going to start carrying pepper spray and a billy club – and after I smack the dog who is loose and trying to get us, I will have it to smack the owner with when they attack me for “attacking” their dog.

I am tired of intimidation by these owners and their loose dogs. Because that is what it is. It is their weak attempt at controlling other people around them with fear.

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[Mama]

Thanks for your post, GreenSpaces.

You wrote, “…because there always IS a next time with people like this.” Sadly, so true…

Hey off leash owner, the one who lets his big dog roam the neighborhood – does it in any way seem right to you that I had to clean your dog’s crap off my front lawn this morning? Boy I’m getting tired of doing that… what a jerk!

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[Anonymous]

The fact that you are unwilling to follow the law and leash your dog is, sorry to say, an “I’m above the law” attitude. //

Yes, I agree with this. We have a large dog, and unless we’re in a dog park, he’s leashed. Sometimes I feel bad about it — he’s very playful and if we stop to chat with another dog owner, he gets into “playful puppy” stance and wants to play with the other dog. But nothing aggravates me more than when I’m working with our dog on heeling, not pulling on the leash, etc., and someone’s off-leash dog runs up to him.

Is there another off-leash dog park besides Westcrest over this way?

Even though that might be the only W Seattle dog park, really, there are SO many dog parks here. We moved here from Cincinnati which is a town of a million+ people, and there was ONE, count it, ONE off-leash park. We really haven’t complained about that since moving here!

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[Anonymous]

PS Wanted to respond to an earlier poster’s note about it being cruel to have a large dog in a small space. That might be true if it’s a truly tiny space, but I think some people have misconceptions about large dogs! We have a mastiff (165 pounds) and previously had a 110-pound Newfoundland. Big dogs like to SLEEP. We walk ours every day and take him to the dog park regularly, and after he runs around for 15 minutes, he’s done.

The only reason I mention this is because when we first moved here most places that took dogs had a weight limit of 25 pounds. Give me a giant sleeping dog in the adjacent apartment any day over a tiny, hyper breed. But that’s another thread.

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[JoB]

MaryT..

i can vouch for that..

i have a midsize hyper breed now instead of my Akitas because hubby thought a smaller dog would be easier… LOL

I am not sure how an apartment or townhouse would work for my neighbors with these two… but it would work fine for the dogs:)

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[guidosmom]

Just wanted to give an update to this issue. I contacted animal control, and it turns out more people must have contacted them as well. It turns out they have been giving citations. I have noticed I haven’t seen as many dogs off leash at Hiawatha or Lincoln Park, most likely as a result. RAVE for Seattle Animal Control!!! They also recommended calling the following if you have any off leash problems.

386-7387 ext 7

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[molly]

Question –

I have a golden retriever puppy and a jack russell. A handful of times the dogs have snuck out the front door and barked at people walking dogs going past the house.

I profusely apologized and explained they snuck out to the people the dogs were barking at. But honestly what is it with people? They can’t take the apology and leave it. A puppy and a 20 lb jack russell that are not violent!

These people threaten to and have called this little number everyone is branding about. They swear at us, threaten me with physical violence, threaten my 3 year old son with ‘letting their dog loose on him’ (I explain to them that he sometimes can’t keep the dogs in when he opens the door).

Chill out everyone. Can’t we all just get along? We need to keep everything in perspective here. Yes if a dog is violent and aggressive by all means report them, if not be mellow, please.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Thank you Molly!

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[JoB]

molly…

unfortunately, once a dog shows it is violent and aggressive.. someone has been hurt…

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[JanS]

molly…do you have a fence? If not, I think perhaps you should put one up :) You have a 3 yo child? Definitely need a fence…that’s called common sense.

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[JoB]

molly..

a baby gate is cheaper..

i have 3 of them strategically placed at my house…

for my dogs.. my grandkids are too old for them:(

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[j]

It’s okay Molly. I think most pet owners can admit that pets are magicians for getting out occasionally. Mistakes happen…just like the mistake that someone is making by threatening to injure you or your son. That is RIDICULOUS! I say the next time they threaten you physically, call 911. I would say that people are taking things a little too far. What a way to be neighborly and build a positive community!

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[JoB]

i admit mine slipped out one day after we moved here.

thankfully, they finally came home with no real incidents…

but the time before that when they slipped out in Minnesota and took a joy run to the local park, mochi came home with an injury to her back leg that has never truly healed.

the main reason i use baby gates is that it’s dangerous for them to get out…

Molly… as for the abusive behavior towards your son that is never appropriate..

and the if those people are reading and think i or anyone else on here approves.. they are very wrong.

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[HP]

mary t, I also have a mastiff and you couldnt be any closer to the truth when you say 15 min and hes done my mastiff puppy (9months) has about 2 ten minute energy bursts a day and a whole lot of sleeping the rest of the day. In fact when we take him to the dog park he would prefer to walk around to all the people and get pets from them over running around. So needless to say I dont take him that often, because he doesnt really need all that much exercise.Any how I am exicited to see another mastiff owner on the blog I have tried to set up a mastiff meetup on cl with no luck maybe if you are interested we could start something at westcrest.

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[JoB]

even my little shibas take long naps in between their bursts of energy…

i have two sleeping contentedly in the back yard as we speak..

i have had both larger (Akitas, shepherds, great danes) and smaller (shibas, sheltys, toys) .. and contrary to popular opinion… i think smaller dogs need more exercise.

they also do more damage to homes…

but don’t tell anyone or even those of us with small dogs will have a difficult time traveling:)

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[Author]

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